Ceilidh calls out Al Swearengen

[Kaelyrhn]

First allow me to admit, yes I can be a a preachy know-it-all. I really despise prejudice in all it's forms, so I fight it. I know I can come off as an "arrogant twat" to use duncvis' words. I guess it's kind of my thing. I know it makes me look sensitive, maybe I am I dunno.

But the point of this callout; why do you, Al Swearengen, insist on using male pronouns to describe me?

[Al Swearegen]

First allow me to admit, yes I can be a a preachy know-it-all. I really despise prejudice in all it's forms, so I fight it. I know I can come off as an "arrogant twat" to use duncvis' words. I guess it's kind of my thing. I know it makes me look sensitive, maybe I am I dunno.

But the point of this callout; why do you, Al Swearengen, insist on using male pronouns to describe me?

I don't "insist" on using male pronouns to describe you. Do i sometimes? Yes. I knew you as GA the male member far before I knew you as Kayleigh the transitioning transgender so old habits and all of that.

So what is the point of this callout again?

[Kaelyrhn]

First allow me to admit, yes I can be a a preachy know-it-all. I really despise prejudice in all it's forms, so I fight it. I know I can come off as an "arrogant twat" to use duncvis' words. I guess it's kind of my thing. I know it makes me look sensitive, maybe I am I dunno.

But the point of this callout; why do you, Al Swearengen, insist on using male pronouns to describe me?

I don't "insist" on using male pronouns to describe you. Do i sometimes? Yes. I knew you as GA the male member far before I knew you as Kayleigh the transitioning transgender so old habits and all of that.

So what is the point of this callout again?

That is all I wanted to know. Though I do ask that you try to avoid using them in the future

[Al Swearegen]

First allow me to admit, yes I can be a a preachy know-it-all. I really despise prejudice in all it's forms, so I fight it. I know I can come off as an "arrogant twat" to use duncvis' words. I guess it's kind of my thing. I know it makes me look sensitive, maybe I am I dunno.

But the point of this callout; why do you, Al Swearengen, insist on using male pronouns to describe me?

I don't "insist" on using male pronouns to describe you. Do i sometimes? Yes. I knew you as GA the male member far before I knew you as Kayleigh the transitioning transgender so old habits and all of that.

So what is the point of this callout again?

That is all I wanted to know. Though I do ask that you try to avoid using them in the future

Oh hell GA that is not much of a callout. While we are here let's have some fun. If you have gone to the bother of calling me out I am up for it. So I will let you have a think about what you are going to have a go at me for. Have a good think and come at me with whatever issue you have with me, rather than another callout another day.

Or don't

If you don't though i will have some fun with you regardless. Callouts ought not be three posts long and over fuck all.

[Kaelyrhn]

It was only the pronouns issue, it seemed wilful and I wanted you to explain why, not sure what I was expecting exactly.
But if, as you say, it's only a slip of the tongue, as it were, then that's okay(ish). I have no other issues with you.

Feel free to "have fun" with me, I don't really care

[Kaelyrhn]

I will respond as needed though

[Al Swearegen]

You know time and time again I see you come in here as soon as anything gets said about transgenderism, in you come with the zealot preaching of a religious doorknocker trying to thrust their fundamental Christian faith in your face.
The similarities are rather transparent as they are unwelcome and unnecessary.

Something is said and then in you come telling us how ignorant and horrible we are and how you know better and starting to post links to prove your font of knowledge around this whilst maligning us for being bigotted and/or ignorant.

You seem to presume we will defer to your "wisdom", be ashamed or abashed for our ignorance and/or bigotry and gain from your lecturing. Perhaps even respect you for it. Maybe even you see this as something integral to our lives.

You seem amazed and devastated that none of this happens and the best that you get is a "Fuck off GA"

Invariably in your efforts to "educate" us and presume bigotry, you have misread or misrepresented what our views are and make yourself look silly (in similar style to your efforts in Emile's thread).

You do not take the time to fiund out what is going on because you are too busy making a case for something uninteresting that none of us have contested nor wish to pursue. Quite often you leave over it.

The overdramticised horror which belies the fact that you did not read the context at all or read into what was said but wanted a chance to malign and lecture

What horrifies me is the responses in this thread. I'm really at a loss for the right words.

Lecturing us like we were your students?

You all need to go back and read my threads on trans issues, particularly the arguments I had with Hadron and Calandale about what defines a woman. I'm looking at you again Odeon. I can't believe you wheeled out the tired cliche that a woman is only her reproductive system (functional or not). You've basically wilfully denied identity to millions of intersex people and to millions of transpeople. According to you, I'll never be a woman, and Soph will always be a woman. Can you fathom how offensive that is?

I would invite you all to read about privilege. Specifically cisgender privilege (cis is the opposite of trans, so cisgender is someone who identifies with their coercively assigned gender).

Now for some lecturing with pronouncements on a lot of people who for the most part don't really care about transgenderism, that they are bigots

In terms of non-binary genders there are gender neutral pronoun neologisms. Which I don't personally like or agree with, but if someone asked me to refer to them with a specific set of pronouns I'd do me best.
It is really difficult to explain Transgender in a way that people who already don't agree with it will accept it. Meaning that any discussion here with so many ignorant bigots is almost an exercise in futility. To put it as simply as possible; Biological sex characteristics are irrelevant, at least in this discussion. Gender identity, the internal identification toward a gender (which may or may not be male or female) is key. A transgendered person's pronoun preference is not for fun, but because that's how they identify.

Amazement that the lectures not given full attention or appreciated

Self important blowhard? Self important maybe, but only to the extent that THIS ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT ME. Hard not to be self important in such a situation, I think. Blowhard...I'm not even sure what that means to be honest.

(The argument in question was not about you but rather about how a transperson was bashed at Mcdonalds and further an assertion that I2 members were bigoted because of this somehow. Bint at her more irrational. Was nothing to do with you GA)

Oh and how about a multitude of links  you have thrust at us that were (whilst probably very informative...did not read them) not contextualised in anything we were contesting from the outset

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Sexual_Differentiation_of_the_Human_Brain__Relevance_for_Gender_Identity,_Transsexualism_and_Sexual_Orientation.pdf

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/131/12/3132

http://www.gendermedicine.com/Uploads/assets/swaab.pdf
http://www.education.tas.gov.au/school/health/inclusive/antidiscrimination/gender/what-is-transphobia
http://tranarchism.com/2011/04/26/guest-post-why-misgendering-is-bad/

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~phollowa/5sexes.html

http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5sexesrevisited.htm
http://www.t-vox.org/index.php?title=Cisgender_Privilege
A video, the "Transwomen's Manifesto", I seriously doubt anyone who should view this will, and those that do view this are likely are already 'on side' as it were.

[Kaelyrhn]

I have nothing to defend. I don't mean that in so far as to suggest what I did was right. But rather that it is probably indefensible.

I could try to defend my actions, say I'm a teacher at heart and my style is...to put it mildly, blunt as a brick to the head. I could say that trans issues, at the stage you've quoted me was a very sensitive issue, and I wanted some support, when I didn't get it I felt I had to "educate" my way to it. I could say that I don't deal well with criticism, I take it personally. Instead of "Oh I made a mistake, I should fix that." I think "Oh I made a mistake I'm a horrible person", or "they think I'm a horrible person.". I get depressed or defensive. It's stupid. Something I'm trying to work on.

I could say a lot of things. But it doesn't really matter... What I did back then was arrogant. I won't deny that. Arrogant to assume my arguments, my 'lecturing', would change opinions. Though granted I now realise that I do not know how to change opinions, if it's even possible, and if it is, should I even try?

I'm trying to be a better person than I was, I know I've slipped back into old habits a couple of times...I can only apologise for both my past actions, and any other the slip ups I've made, or will make.

I won't ask for patience, that's unfair. It's probably unfair to ask for understanding too.

All I can do I apologise, and tell you I am trying to be better.

[Al Swearegen]

I have nothing to defend. I don't mean that in so far as to suggest what I did was right. But rather that it is probably indefensible.

I could try to defend my actions, say I'm a teacher at heart and my style is...to put it mildly, blunt as a brick to the head. I could say that trans issues, at the stage you've quoted me was a very sensitive issue, and I wanted some support, when I didn't get it I felt I had to "educate" my way to it. I could say that I don't deal well with criticism, I take it personally. Instead of "Oh I made a mistake, I should fix that." I think "Oh I made a mistake I'm a horrible person", or "they think I'm a horrible person.". I get depressed or defensive. It's stupid. Something I'm trying to work on.

I could say a lot of things. But it doesn't really matter... What I did back then was arrogant. I won't deny that. Arrogant to assume my arguments, my 'lecturing', would change opinions. Though granted I now realise that I do not know how to change opinions, if it's even possible, and if it is, should I even try?

I'm trying to be a better person than I was, I know I've slipped back into old habits a couple of times...I can only apologise for both my past actions, and any other the slip ups I've made, or will make.

I won't ask for patience, that's unfair. It's probably unfair to ask for understanding too.

All I can do I apologise, and tell you I am trying to be better.

Shit!

Ok I concede.

Fuck's sake. I wanted a fight or an argument or something.

Why now show a bit of integrity and honesty? Doesn't make me pity you but rather appreciate you efforts here and that sucks.

I guess all I can really say is that Autism affects all our lives and even so we are not that driven in defence of it. Transgenderism is not something most of us are that invested in. We are not for or against or ignorant or learned or Wishing ill on transpeople. We know what it is like to be a minority. Passion is a good thing. Activism is Ok too. These are not bad qualities to possess.

Ugh! 

[Kaelyrhn]

I suppose we could call this Callout a draw then?

Sorry I didn't give you something meatier to have a go with.

I have questions over whether I actually am Autistic, hell I have questions over everything... But that's another topic for another thread.

[Al Swearegen]

It was a stupid callout and i would love to see it buried and forgotten.

[Émile Armand]

Now you two hug and make up.

[Al Swearegen]

Now you two hug and make up.

No that is not how this works. GA may not get called an arsehole quite so much until she next fucks up. That is about as good as it gets. You on the other hand?

[Émile Armand]

Now you two hug and make up.

No that is not how this works. GA may not get called an arsehole quite so much until she next fucks up. That is about as good as it gets. You on the other hand?

You want to hug me.

[Al Swearegen]

Now you two hug and make up.

No that is not how this works. GA may not get called an arsehole quite so much until she next fucks up. That is about as good as it gets. You on the other hand?

You want to hug me.

Close. I was thinking more along the lines of ripping of you arms, jamming them in your ears and riding you around like a motorbike. But it was kind of ballpark I guess