Author Topic: The right to bear arms  (Read 19006 times)

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Offline odeon

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2006, 10:21:54 AM »
But how much greater is the rate of homicides committed with knives/blunt objects in Sweden compared to the gun violence in Sweden? Probably much greater. Criminals will use what means they can get.

If your theory held water, the non-gun homicide rate would be comparatively higher per 100,000 (or whatever comparison you choose) in Sweden than in the US since, in your words, "criminals will use what means they can get".

It isn't. It's LOWER.

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And of course the violence of any kind is higher in percentage in the US. It's a much more heterogenous country, which Scrapheap and I already have stated. A heterogenous country always has more violence than a homogenous one. It's just cheap political correctnness or naïveté to state something else.


Of course? Please show me the relevant statistics. Your argument is a bigot's standard retort.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2006, 10:40:56 AM »

If your theory held water, the non-gun homicide rate would be comparatively higher per 100,000 (or whatever comparison you choose) in Sweden than in the US since, in your words, "criminals will use what means they can get".

It isn't. It's LOWER.

What I mean is: You said that 41 people were shot to death in Sweden 2000. Were less than 41 people stabbed or hit to death? Isn't the number of murders in Sweden about 200-300 per year? Are they committed with bear hands?

Quote from: odeon

Of course? Please show me the relevant statistics. Your argument is a bigot's standard retort.

Well, if the Swedish BRÃ… was honest enough to have statistics (or at least publish it) about crime rates vs ethniticity it would be a piece of cake. but they haven't. Because that is grossly politically incorrect and the officials who published such information would get fired and prosecuted for hate crime.

Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2006, 10:48:53 AM »
But if non-ethnical Swedes/immigrants are as law-abiding, or more law-abiding than ethnical Swedes, why would they hesitate to publish the statistics? It would only benefit them if this was the case, wouldn't it?

Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2006, 10:56:52 AM »
And stop calling me a bigot. I for sure now what bigotism is. All I'm saying is that the crime rate among immigrants is higher, not that a majority or more than a small minority of immigrants are criminals, just like among ethnical Swedes.

Political correctness is only inverted bigotism.


Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2006, 04:50:34 AM »
Never mind. We won't get any further. Arm the bears, for fuck's sake!  :wanker:

Offline odeon

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2006, 05:06:01 AM »
And stop calling me a bigot. I for sure now what bigotism is. All I'm saying is that the crime rate among immigrants is higher, not that a majority or more than a small minority of immigrants are criminals, just like among ethnical Swedes.

Political correctness is only inverted bigotism.



Good point on PC. +

For the record, though, I didn't call you a bigot: "Your argument is a bigot's standard retort."

Never mind. We won't get any further. Arm the bears, for fuck's sake!  :wanker:

;D That's why I wanted to stop this earlier. Let's just agree to disagree. Arm the bears, NOW!
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Eamonn

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #96 on: November 04, 2006, 11:44:44 AM »
I believe strongly that people should have the right to own what ever kind arms they want, as long as they aren't ex-cons and other undesirables, Why shouldn't people be not allowed to own automatic guns, catapults, battle axes, maces (not the spray kind), swords, rocket launchers, tanks, gunship helicopters, biological, chemical and nuclear weapons, so long as they do not use them to volatile the law.

The ownership of these weapons aren't going to increase the crime rate, look at Switzerland, every gun is required by law to keep military weapons and is not a lawless society by any means. It would be the ultimate expression of a free, democratic and well ordered society, that we can afford to let the citizenry any kind of arms they see fit.  8)

This should be in the 'Make someone laugh' section because you're having a laugh.

Offline QuirkyCarla

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2006, 10:42:58 PM »
Since people (i.e. litigious, McJagger) keep bringing this up, I decided to resurrect this thread.

I don't think guns should be completely abolished, but I definitely think the USA needs stricter gun control laws. The USA has experienced many tragedies that could have been prevented if it weren't for guns. There have been a number of school shootings. There was the Will Freund incident. Most successful suicides are caused by guns. Guns also make it easier to commit crimes.

As a future teacher, the gun issue is something I am going to have to worry about. Maybe not as much in New Jersey as I would in some other states (being that it's more difficult to legally buy a gun here than in a lot of the other states), but it will still be an issue that concerns me. It will be my responsiblity to look out for at risk/emotionally disturbed children who are in danger of hurting themselves or others. I scares me that there's always the possibility that a child could bring a gun to school and hurt someone.

Guns also make it easier to commit suicide. I agree that it's one's right if they want to commit suicide, but at the same time, I highly value human life. There's a big possibility that if people who commit suicide with guns didn't have them, they could still be alive. Maybe those who have committed suicide with guns would have eventually changed their mind and started to have quality of life. In most cases, suicide IS a permanent solution to a temporary problem. You can almost always change your life. Personally, I used to be suicidal, and I still occasionally think of it when I get depressed. I am very thankful that I (or my parents) never owned a gun, or else I may not be alive today. In one of my classes, my professor had her husband, a police officer, come in to talk to us about school safety. He talked about Columbine, some of the other school shootings, and suicide. In a documentary he showed, there was a police station taking a 911 call from a little girl. The child was hysterically crying and told them that her brother was dead. They asked her how he died, and she cried, "GUN!" and told them that he killed himself. This really moved me, and I had tears in my eyes myself. That kind of situation is NOT okay. That poor little girl is going to probably be traumatized for the rest of her life now.

Will Freund should definitely not have had a gun, but he did. The person who sold it to him said something like, "How was I supposed to know he was disturbed?" That's the thing. You DON'T know who's going to be disturbed, which is why guns shouldn't be sold to the general public or at least the laws should be much stricter. I'm fine with cops having them, and kind of okay with people in the military or who used to be in the military having them, but that's about it. I'm kind of iffy on hunters having them. I also really don't like people who have children in the house owning guns. Even if you lock your gun up, or store it really high, there's still a chance they can find a way to get to it.

Some people say if it's not a gun, they'll use another weapon to harm someone, but guns are a  unique weapon. With knives, crowbars and such you need to be near enough to the person to harm them. With a gun, you can be quite a distance away to shoot them. This makes guns more effective when it comes to crime.

As for protection, there are other ways of protecting yourself. Most people don't *need* a gun in order to protect themselves. You can use mase, or take up karate or something. Besides, if the other person has a gun, they could shoot you first. There's also the chance they'll manage to disarm you and use your gun to harm you. I respect if people want to use them for protection, but it really doesn't seem necessary to me. I feel the risks aren't worth it.

As I said before, I value human life, so if I have to choose between having the freedom to bear arms and saving lives, I choose saving lives. If you look at statistics, there are a staggering amount of gun related deaths in the US as opposed to countries like New Zealand. I respect and have no problem with people who own guns and are careful with them, but I dislike guns and think they should be more difficult to attain because of the reasons I listed above. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind; I'm merely defending my position. I hope those of you that are pro-guns can respect my opinion too (and know that no matter what you say, my opinion won't change). Besides, it's not like my opinion is going to change the US government or anything.

Scrapheap

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2006, 12:18:30 AM »

As I said before, I value human life, so if I have to choose between having the freedom to bear arms and saving lives, I choose saving lives.

Those who would exchange freedom for security.....deserve niether.

Offline QuirkyCarla

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2006, 01:07:47 AM »
-1 for your comment.

I only think freedom should be sacrificed when it involves harming others. Everyone deserves to be safe, and when someone is murdered by a gun, their right to live is being taken away. It pisses me off that children die because their idiot parents are allowed to have guns.

Scrapheap

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2006, 01:41:14 AM »
-1 for your comment.

If I gave a damn about  karma points, I would consider that quite petty. I thought only christians and muslims try to penalize those with whom they disagree.

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I only think freedom should be sacrificed when it involves harming others.
Who am I harming by owning guns?? Other than those who would deprive me of my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
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Everyone deserves to be safe, and when someone is murdered by a gun, their right to live is being taken away.
Guns are also used millions of times per year, in the hands of private citizens,to thwart crime and save lives.

Can't you give credit where credit is due??
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It pisses me off that children die because their idiot parents are allowed to have guns.

More children are killed by thier parents swimming pools than by thier parents guns. It's a fact!!

[/quote]

Offline QuirkyCarla

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2006, 02:49:40 AM »
-1 for your comment.
If I gave a damn about  karma points, I would consider that quite petty. I thought only christians and muslims try to penalize those with whom they disagree.

Uh, it's just a karma system on a website...it can't really be compared to suicide bombings and/or whatever else you're referring to. Also, that's quite a generalization. Finally, I thought what you said was rude since you were basically saying I don't deserve security or freedom. When people are rude to me, I minus them. It's what the karma system is for.


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I only think freedom should be sacrificed when it involves harming others.
Who am I harming by owning guns?? Other than those who would deprive me of my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.


I respect that you're not harming anybody, but I'm not speaking about you per se. I'm speaking generally. If there were stricter gun control laws, thousands of deaths could be prevented. Because so many people are allowed to purchase guns, they often fall into the wrong hands.[/quote]

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Everyone deserves to be safe, and when someone is murdered by a gun, their right to live is being taken away.
Guns are also used millions of times per year, in the hands of private citizens,to thwart crime and save lives.

Can't you give credit where credit is due??

As I said before, there are other ways people can defend themselves...and the less people who have guns, the less people who *need* them.

More children are killed by thier parents swimming pools than by thier parents guns. It's a fact!!

We're not talking about swimming pools. Those parents are idiots too.

Anyway, should children still have to die in school shootings and by their own friends'/relatives' guns just because it is less likely than drowning in a swimming pool? ::)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 02:51:34 AM by QuirkyCarla »

Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2006, 04:46:23 AM »
-1 for your comment.

I only think freedom should be sacrificed when it involves harming others. Everyone deserves to be safe, and when someone is murdered by a gun, their right to live is being taken away. It pisses me off that children die because their idiot parents are allowed to have guns.


You're going to be a teacher and you don't even know why your Founding Fathers granted every American to keep and bear arms? Do you think that a government is something sent from heaven, that will never hurt you and your loved ones for no reason whatsoever? Does it look like that, if you look around the world?

How exactly would you fight a dictator unarmed? Look at the Iraquis. They have had the right to keep and bear arms and they can fight the Americans pretty good, though your army is much stronger. I'm not on their side, but you get my point? Armed citizens can always stand up against the military, because they are so many and the military can't know who is armed and who is not. Unarmed citizens are cattle that can be slaughtered by the tyrants. Would you like that to happen to your children? 

The right to keep and bear arms is one of the things that many Europeans admire America for, that is, the ones of us who aren't cowards. Ever since I was a child, I have cursed my cowardly countrymen, who have accepted an unjust gun law to be put up upon them. I regret deeply that I didn't try to migrate to the US when I was younger. I could do that only to get that precious right, to be armed like a man, that is, my right being it, not some fucking privilege that some jerk would give me like I were a pet or a child, who had no rights of my own.

Do you know who are armed in public in Europe except for the police? THE CRIMINALS! They have machine guns and hand grenades, even here in Sweden. And the law abiding citizen has no right to bear arms in public to defend himself against them, if he would happen to get in their way. He's a slaughter sheep. Is that what you call safety?

You're almost 300 millions Americans. About 11000 are getting killed every year in gun related crimes. That is 11 out of 300000. That's not much, considering that they're offered upon the altar of freedom. If I were an American and my child were killed by a school shooting, it would break my heart and I'd feel sorrow for it the rest of my life, just like everyone else, but I would know that it wasn't totally meaningless and I would accept the sacrifice, even if my heart would be aching for the rest of my life. Isn't there an American expression "You always have to pay for everything"? That goes for freedom too. Particularly for freedom.

Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2006, 04:49:43 AM »

More children are killed by thier parents swimming pools than by thier parents guns. It's a fact!!


50 times more Swedes are killed by cars every year than by guns, but I've never heard that owning a car would be a privilege and that you would have to take driving lessons twice a month or week the rest of your life to keep your car, like you would to keep even the smallest caliber one hand gun here. On the contrary, it's no big deal at all to commit a traffic crime here. Because owning a car won't threaten the oppressor's power. You would usually get less time in jail for killing anyone driving drunk than for just possessing a gun illegally without committing any other crime with it.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 04:54:16 AM by Litigious »

purposefulinsanity

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2006, 04:58:37 AM »
What gives you the right to label people cowards simply for disagreeing with you?  The reason I don't think that guns should be more easily available is because I see the damage that the brain dead do to each other and innocent people with knives, their fists, broken bottles, etc and I don't particulalrly want to make it easier for them to get hold of weapons that mean they wouldn't even have to get close enough for those they are attacking to defend themselves in order to attack them.  What good is your gun safely locked away in a gun cupboard going to be to you when you're walking down the street and some pissed up wanker decides to shoot at you for kicks?

And Carla can know why the founding fathers granted americans the right to bear arms without agreeing with it.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 05:00:52 AM by purposefulinsanity »