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Islam is a dangerous, fanatical religion
odeon:
It's interesting how a discussion about Islam morphed into gun control and then women's rights and the glass ceiling.
Al Swearegen:
--- Quote from: Pyraxis on December 10, 2017, 04:51:06 PM ---You're assuming that the majority of people in those top leadership positions rise through middle management first... are you sure that's accurate? There are just as many gender problems in the Silicon Valley startup culture, if not more, than there are in large companies. Men are far more likely to get funding for startups than women.
But let's include the other minorities too. If it's primarily an issue of choice, why are there not more male immigrant CEO's? Arguments about taking time off to raise a family wouldn't apply to them.
It's true that there's a drop-off around the level of middle management for women. The articles I'm finding point to more reasons than the family issue. According to this study which separates the responses of men and women, time for family is only #3 - in the responses of both genders. #1 and 2 are women being held to higher standards, and the bullshit response of companies "not being ready to" promote more women. There are issues with women being segregated (yes, partially by choice, it's not about pointing fingers) into departments like HR which are unlikely to promote from head of department to an executive position. People who get promoted to executive leadership have a broader range experience than that.
Yeah, the psychopath factor is a thing too. Represented in some of these articles by "men not recognizing women's differing leadership style", which I think is coming at the same phenomenon from a different angle. But it's not actually backed up by profit results.
--- Quote ---One analysis found a huge advantage to investing in Fortune 1000 companies with female CEOs: A potential return of 348 percent, nearly triple the gain of Standard & Poor's 500 companies.43 Another analysis found that during the downturn of 2007–09, U.S. corporations with women on their boards performed better, partly because of lower debt levels. Profit growth averaged 14 percent over six years, compared with 10 percent for companies with all-male boards, according to the Credit Suisse study.44 Companies with women in senior posts or on boards also have fewer governance-related scandals including bribery, corruption and fraud.
--- End quote ---
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No, but isn't that the entire point? GENDER difference?
What I see (and I admit this is completely anecdotal) is a number of up and coming women leaders dropping out temporarily to have kids and are given Maternity leave and their place guaranteed when they return and some do return. Some don't. Of those that do a large percentage of them start reducing hours either in taking up Part time roles or doing set hours. Those that do come back are often not willing to make work their life like so many of their male counterparts. Some absolutely do and start getting back to where they left back and fit the family things in edgeways like so many of their male counterparts.
I do not say that these things are praise-worthy. I believe if you become a politician you need to necessarily sacrifice your values and if you become a manager you need to sacrifice your life to work. I think it is a Faustian Bargain that women are not as keen to make....in general. Same as women doing the dangerous, remote, dirty, physically destroying jobs. You WILL find women in this role but they are few and far between because it is a choice and one they choose not to make for the same reasons - the extra pay is not worth the sacrifice they would be making.
None of this I find the least bit objectionable. I personally am reasonably risk averse and nor would I give up my life to work any more than the unpaid overtime I put in already. The only thing I find objectionable is that when grown adults make informed choices that this is now used as a blunt instrument to beat a narrative about inequality. Everyone has equality of choice not equality of outcome and with every choice comes rewards and disadvantages. If women through informed and honest choice do get some tangible benefits and more balance and less stress and less risk...I say that is a good choice for them BUT that comes with forgoing extra pay. Men, if they choose these positions with extra pay, have no reason to then complain that they have no freedom and balance.
Pyraxis:
--- Quote from: Al Swearengen on December 11, 2017, 03:35:36 AM ---None of this I find the least bit objectionable. I personally am reasonably risk averse and nor would I give up my life to work any more than the unpaid overtime I put in already.
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If it's unpaid it's probably not affecting the surveys. :P
--- Quote from: Al Swearengen on December 11, 2017, 03:35:36 AM ---The only thing I find objectionable is that when grown adults make informed choices that this is now used as a blunt instrument to beat a narrative about inequality. Everyone has equality of choice not equality of outcome and with every choice comes rewards and disadvantages. If women through informed and honest choice do get some tangible benefits and more balance and less stress and less risk...I say that is a good choice for them BUT that comes with forgoing extra pay. Men, if they choose these positions with extra pay, have no reason to then complain that they have no freedom and balance.
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Ok that's a really good point. I did see a lot of calls in these articles for quotas, but I don't think that's the best answer.
One thing that's happening in this part of the world is paternity leave is becoming more of an equal thing. Women are still guaranteed a set amount of time off for dealing with the physical repercussions of pregnancy, but beyond that, there is a specified amount of time which can be split among the spouses however they choose. Giving men more freedom if they do want to choose family. I still hear guys ribbing each other at work about how much paternity leave they took - haven't heard that directed at a woman yet - but it does lay some groundwork for culture change.
Al Swearegen:
--- Quote from: Pyraxis on December 11, 2017, 08:40:04 AM ---
--- Quote from: Al Swearengen on December 11, 2017, 03:35:36 AM ---None of this I find the least bit objectionable. I personally am reasonably risk averse and nor would I give up my life to work any more than the unpaid overtime I put in already.
--- End quote ---
If it's unpaid it's probably not affecting the surveys. :P
--- Quote from: Al Swearengen on December 11, 2017, 03:35:36 AM ---The only thing I find objectionable is that when grown adults make informed choices that this is now used as a blunt instrument to beat a narrative about inequality. Everyone has equality of choice not equality of outcome and with every choice comes rewards and disadvantages. If women through informed and honest choice do get some tangible benefits and more balance and less stress and less risk...I say that is a good choice for them BUT that comes with forgoing extra pay. Men, if they choose these positions with extra pay, have no reason to then complain that they have no freedom and balance.
--- End quote ---
Ok that's a really good point. I did see a lot of calls in these articles for quotas, but I don't think that's the best answer.
One thing that's happening in this part of the world is paternity leave is becoming more of an equal thing. Women are still guaranteed a set amount of time off for dealing with the physical repercussions of pregnancy, but beyond that, there is a specified amount of time which can be split among the spouses however they choose. Giving men more freedom if they do want to choose family. I still hear guys ribbing each other at work about how much paternity leave they took - haven't heard that directed at a woman yet - but it does lay some groundwork for culture change.
--- End quote ---
Paternity leave will always work best when women and men can take their leave off together. House husbands do exist and admittedly probably more than lady high rise window washers but trying to swing the culture to a point where men will not feel a driving need to be the breadwinner is going to be a long road.
Yuri Bezmenov:
--- Quote from: odeon on December 06, 2017, 01:04:17 AM ---That was either the gullibility meter or the dishonesty meter breaking, folks.
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... or the just making shit up as you go along meter.
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